© Josh Sager
Note — While many include gay rights and transsexual/transgendered rights in the same category, I am writing this refutation solely on the issue of arguments against gay equality. I will write a similar article in the future refuting arguments against transsexual rights, but that will be a completely separate endeavor — Note
In the following article, I will attempt to debunk all of the major anti-gay arguments which are commonly used to justify legalized bigotry. Laws which discriminate against gay people in marriage, civil protections, and parenting rights are commonly proposed at the state level, particularly in the southern USA.
Fortunately, the general trajectory of recent federal laws is towards greater equality, but we still have a good way to go before full equality is realized.
- Before 2003, states were allowed to ban gay sex. The Supreme Court case Lawrence v. Texas changed this and rendered all anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional.
- Before 2011, openly gay people weren’t allowed to serve in our military. The repeal of don’t ask don’t tell (the official policy of discrimination) in 2011 by the Obama administration stopped this type of discrimination.
- By the end of 2012, 9 states had legalized gay marriage.
- Current public opinion polls show that more Americans today support gay equality than discrimination—this distribution is far-improved from even a few years ago, when more people favored discrimination than equality.
While there have been numerous advances in equality, discriminatory laws still exist in most states. Currently, 41 have legal statutes in place banning gay marriage. Over the last few years, many states have gradually moved towards marriage equality, but this has been slow and there are still numerous state-level fights over gay rights.
Personally, I am straight and find myself utterly unaffected by anti-gay legislation, thus many would wonder why I would consider anti-gay legislation to be such an important issue; it is often these very same people who will stand by and let anti-gay legislation pass under the justification that it doesn’t affect them and they have no stake in stopping such discrimination. I support gay equality for three simple reasons:
1) I see it as unfair to discriminate against a minority group based upon characteristics that are absolutely harmless to society. Regardless of whether legalized discrimination is against a religious, racial, or sexual orientation minority, I will do my best to fight against it.
2) I recognize a very serious danger to equality when I see it and believe that all bigotry must be rejected, lest it set a bad precedent. Whenever a group begins to be persecuted under the law, it sets a precedent that bigotry is acceptable and invites further attacks on minority groups. Even if you don’t belong to the persecuted class, you must stand up against bigotry, if only because the next class to be persecuted may be yours. If you refuse to stand up when others are being unfairly persecuted, then you have no right to complain when it is you who is being persecuted and nobody comes to your aid.
3) In addition to the issue of bigotry, I also have a severe problem with any religious encroachment into secular policy. I am an atheist (raised Jewish) and don’t want my government to obey any religion. The law should be based upon secular morality and logic, not age-old superstations and ignorant customs from the Stone Age.
In order to combat bigotry, we must argue with the bigots and make coherent points to combat their rhetoric. While it is unlikely that we will ever sway the true-believers, the following arguments might be able to sway the marginal individuals who make up the undecided category—I would like to invite any reader to use the following refutations as their own.
1) “Being gay is a sin, thus it should be banned by law.”
Depending upon one’s religion, homosexuality may very well be a sin, but this has no bearing on the law. The United States is a secular democracy and the first Amendment to our constitution guarantees that our laws are not based in any religion’s doctrines. As such, any attempts to ban homosexuality or deny homosexuals equal rights based upon the concept of religious sin are completely unconstitutional and wrongheaded.
The entire concept of a “sin” is subjective and is based purely upon the religious beliefs of the religion that is labeling the behavior; every religion has its own set of “sins” and there is no real consensus between the religions. In essence, a “sin” is whatever a religion decides to label as a taboo action (ex. eating pork) and nothing more—just because something is a “sin” it does not mean that that action is immoral or something that can be made illegal. Some “sins” are based around secular taboos (ex. theft, rape and murder) and thus parallel the secular law, while others are based around religious taboos (ex. homosexuality, eating pork, not covering one’s head) and have no place being introduced into secular law.
Due to the highly subjective nature of the concept of sin, there is little point in arguing whether or not homosexuality is actually a sin—if a religion wants to call any action a sin under their doctrine, then that is their right. If the religion in question wants to frown on the “sin” then that is also their right, but the mere fact that some religion considers an action a sin in no way means that our secular laws should be altered to reflect this displeasure.
Our founders were intelligent enough to recognize that every religion has its own set of taboo “sins,” and that our country’s laws must be based around secular morality rather than religious taboo. To this end, they wrote the 1st Amendment to the constitution in order to prevent future generations from enshrining their personal religious ideals into the secular law.
Many religions—particularly fundamentalist Christianity and Islam—have classified homosexuality as among their most severe sins. Such religious groups often put up extreme resistance to legal equality for homosexuals in societies which they have a strong influence. In the United States, most of these anti-gay religious individuals are fundamentalist Christians.
Homosexuality may be a religious sin, but it is not immoral and has no detrimental effect on society. There is simply no real secular justification for any legal discrimination against gays, and all attempts to discriminate against gays in the law can be traced back to bigotry and religious tenants. Without a secular reason to pass laws discriminating against gays, we are left with the simple fact that anti-gay legislation is purely bigotry and has no place in the law.
If homosexuals are legally discriminated against due to purely religious reasons, what prevents other potential “sinners” from being persecuted for their “sins?” After all, a great many things that we enjoy every day are considered “sins” by one religion or another:
- According to Judaism, people must eat kosher and it is a “sin” to eat bacon, cheeseburgers, lobster and most BBQ.
- According to Christianity, all premarital sex is a “sin.”
- According to Islam, women who don’t cover their bodies are committing a “sin.”
- According to Hinduism, it is a “sin” to touch somebody of a higher caste.
Just like with homosexuality, none of these religious “sins” have a secular justification and it is insane to expect that society will conform to a religion that they don’t believe in. Unlike some countries (ex. Iran) we in the USA don’t alter the secular laws to reflect any religion’s concept of sin because we understand the idea of religious choice. The second we accept bigotry against gays, we open the door to religious laws infiltrating further into our country and attacking our religious freedoms further.
Unless somebody can point to a real victim of homosexual behavior and make a secular case for discrimination (which is impossible), it is ridiculous to legally discriminate against homosexuals. Such laws make as much sense as laws that would enforce bans on other behaviors that some religions consider sins—such as banning all seafood, or mandating that all men must grow their beards to a certain length.
Let religions keep their ideas of sin in-house, leaving secular logic to decide secular law. If religious individuals want to label homosexuality as a sin, that is there right, but their label should have no power outside of their religious faith (ex. they can refuse to marry gay people in their house of worship, but they can’t prevent gay people from getting married).
2) “Homosexuality is immoral and unnatural, thus the government has the duty to ban it.”
Those who support this argument are letting their religious ideology and personal biases overshadow their understanding of fact. In reality, homosexuality is morally identical to heterosexuality and is probably just a naturally occurring biological variant.
When all religious and social biases are taken out of the equation, we are left with the simple fact that homosexuality and heterosexuality are both morally neutral; they involve two consenting adults interacting in a way that has no effect on the wellbeing of other people. Regardless of the combination of genders involved, these relationships are only the business of those involved and there is no legitimate reason why they should be labeled as immoral.
The entire concept of homosexuality being immoral is based not in objective reality, but in a complex set of religious and societal biases. Many religious and secular codes of conduct have attached a specious label of immorality to homosexuality—from Christianity labeling homosexuality a sin to machismo labeling it as immoral and unmanly. When individuals today try to label homosexuality as immoral, it is the ingrained biases of these codes that they are referring to, not any real reason why homosexuality is immoral.
There are situation where sexual activity, both homosexual and heterosexual, can become immoral, but this has nothing to do with orientation. When sex acts are forced on unwilling participants they become immoral and criminal acts of rape. In addition to this, any sex acts forced upon people who cannot consent (ex. children or the mentally disabled) are also immoral. Neither of these immoral acts depends upon the sexual orientation or genders of those involved, but rather the concept of consent. As the only thing that separates a consensual homosexual relationship and a consensual heterosexual relationship is the gender of those involved, the moral issue of consent is equivocal. Saying that homosexual behavior should be morally equated with homosexual instances of rape is just as unfair as morally condemning heterosexuality because most rapes are perpetrated on a person of the opposite sex.
While it isn’t the predominant sexual orientation, labeling homosexuality as “unnatural” is absolutely wrong. According to numerous peer-reviewed studies on the subject, homosexual behavior has been documented in hundreds of animal species; the exact number of species documented to exhibit homosexual behavior is always growing, but the Yale Scientific newsletter has reported that at least 450 examples have been confirmed. If homosexual behavior is documented in hundreds of species—ranging in complexity from fish to human beings—then it is, by definition, a natural occurrence.
At worst, homosexuality is unusual, but not unnatural. Just as some people are born left-handed, some people are born with same sex attraction. The mere fact that an occurrence isn’t the norm, does not justify calling it unnatural, and certainly doesn’t justify banning it.
The government has no business banning homosexuality for several simple reasons:
- Homosexuals aren’t harming anybody: there is no compelling social interest that would justify our government intruding into the lives of homosexuals and regulating their behavior. As previously pointed out, homosexuality has no effect on the lives of others and isn’t something that can potentially damage the health of society.
- Just because something isn’t the norm, there is no reason for the government to ban it: Plenty of human characteristics aren’t “normal,” including being left handed (less than 30% of the population) or having green eyes (less than 5% of the population), yet homosexuality is the one which is singled out for persecution. It isn’t until a behavior is damaging to others that the government becomes able to ban it to protect the common good.
- The government is severely restricted in regulating sexual activity: according to Supreme Court decisions, the government is extremely limited in its ability to regulate certain sectors of life (ex. sex, child-raising, and religion) where there is no compelling interest.
The 2003 Supreme Court case Lawrence v. Texas that struck down state sodomy bans is the case that confirms the inability of state governments to regulate private sexual activity. According to the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the constitution, a state lacks any compelling interest to insert itself into the personal sex lives of consenting adults—gay of straight—and thus any bans on sexual conduct between such consenting parties is unconstitutional. This decision, in no uncertain terms, concludes that banning gay people from having sex is not within the power of the government, regardless of the stated justification. That said, this case does not prevent states from interfering with marriage (a state-sanctioned contract), or refusing to pass employer discrimination laws.
When all things are considered, the arguments that homosexuality is immoral or unnatural are simply false on their face. Such arguments are based in bigotry rather than reality and are not valid arguments for public policy. It is undeniable that homosexuality isn’t the predominant sexual orientation, but it is a natural phenomenon and has no moral component. As a morally and ethically neutral phenomenon, the government has no interest in legislating discrimination against gays and no constitutional ability to do so.
3) “Gay marriage isn’t natural marriage and is a redefinition of the term”
This argument must be broken down into two parts to refute, as it is actually half true. On one hand, expanding marriage to include gay couples would change marriage but, on other hand, there is no such thing as “natural marriage.” Just as with sin (see above section), marriage is a societal construct that has no empirical definition other than what society has decided it to be; as society changes, marriage has been redefined numerous times. There is no such thing as “natural marriage,” and there is nothing wrong with letting marriage evolve as society sheds its bigotries against minority groups.
While many religious people like to look at marriage as a static ceremony that has existed unchanged for thousands of years, this is simply not the case. The Judeo-Christian concept of marriage (when religious people talk about marriage in the United States, this is what they are talking about 99% of the time) has existed for thousands of years, but it has radically evolved during this time.
Back in biblical times, marriage was a drastically different thing then it is today. A woman had virtually no power in the relationship and was considered little more than the property of her husband. A woman was essentially sold to her husband (with a dowry price) under the expectation that she would serve him and give him children. In many cases, these marriages involved numerous women married to a single man. Fortunately, as civilization evolved over the centuries, society changed and marriage evolved to give women equality in the relationship.
Back in the era of slavery, there were several definitions of marriage. Marriage between white Americans was similar to what we now consider marriage today (although with fewer rights for the woman and less of a possibility for divorce), but marriage for the other races was radically different. Marriages between slaves, when permitted, were annullable through distance (ex. when one of them was sold) and had no legal value. Marriages between white Americans and free black Americans weren’t legal under the law at all. Eventually, slavery was abolished, and interracial marriage was legalized, but it is still important to note that marriage was changed radically within the lifespan of our relatively young civilization.
As is evident by the changes that the concept of marriage has undergone over the years, the entire idea of “traditional marriage” simply doesn’t exist in any meaningful form. Marriage is constantly changing, thus there is no real way to point to a single incarnation of the term and call it “traditional”. Less than 50 years have gone by since the radical change in marriage that was legalized interracial marriage, thus making what current religious people call “traditional marriage” very young. In reality, those who support “traditional marriage” are simply taking what they consider marriage today and asserting that that is how things have always been in order to fight reform.
Despite the mutable definition of marriage, it is true that allowing gay people to marry could realistically be considered a redefinition of the idea of marriage. Whether it is fair or not, for hundreds of years, marriage in western civilization has been exclusively between a man and a woman. Allowing gay people to marry on equal terms with straight people would be a departure from this precedent, but not one that should be feared.
The expansion of marriage to include homosexual couples changes the definition of marriage in a manner very similar to when interracial marriage was legalized in 1967. In both situations, societal bigotry prevented certain people from being married, even if they were consenting adults and in a relationship. As society changed and bigotries became less acceptable, marriage between the previously discriminated against groups became legalized. Eventually, society accepts the new definition of marriage as mainstream and any attacks on the newly accepted groups becomes socially unacceptable (ex. attacking interracial marriage today). Today, gay marriage has not hit the point where it is mainstream (although a majority of Americans believe that it should be legal), but this will come in the future—as more states accept gay marriage, it will follow interracial marriage into the mainstream and the issue will gradually fade from view.
Just as we now hear about the terrible dangers of “changing the definition of marriage” by letting gay people get married, we heard identical arguments during the push to legalize interracial marriage. For example, here is a quote from a Georgia State representative during debate over the potential legalization of interracial marriage:
“Allowing interracial marriages “necessarily involves the degradation” of conventional marriage, an institution that “deserves admiration rather than execration.”
Sound familiar to anybody?
The next time that you hear somebody try to use this argument, you can simply ask them if they support the “changing” of the definition of marriage to include interracial couples during the 1960s. If they answer this question in the affirmative, then you can simply point out that legalizing interracial marriage was demonstrably a change in the definition of marriage; as they admit to supporting a previous change in marriage, they cannot argue that marriage is has a “traditional” and immutable definition. If marriage could be changed back then to include interracial couples, then nothing but bigotry prevents it from being changed today to include gay couples.
4) “Letting gay people marry and have equal rights diminishes marriage and harms the sanctity of straight marriage.”
In many arguments about rights there is a balancing act between the rights of different groups (ex. a racist shopkeeper versus a black patron), but marriage equality is most certainly not one of these issues. Giving equal marriage rights to gay individuals has absolutely no effect on the marriages of other people.
The ability of gay people to get married under the law has simply no way of affecting the marriages of straight people other than by offending their religious moralities. Letting gay people marry will just extend the very same rights and protections enjoyed by straight couples over gay couples and will in no way reduce these rights. Marriage rights are not a negative sum situation where giving some people rights takes away from everybody else and there is no realistic justification for preventing gay couples from marrying.
In the secular law, marriage is simply a contract between two individuals that ensures certain societal and tax considerations. Married couples enjoy special tax rates, a protection against compulsory testimony in criminal proceedings (spousal privilege), and several other benefits that unmarried couples don’t get. In secular law, the sanctity of marriage is little more than a bond between two people recognized by the state and given special privileges, thus the genders of those involved really shouldn’t matter (e.g. how could the genders of those involved possible effect the process of joint asset tax filings?). Denying marriage equality is less a matter of secular policy and the integrity of the secular marriage contract, then it is religion bleeding into secular policy.
When talking about the “sanctity of marriage” in regard to gay equality, it is important to make the distinction between religious marriage and secular marriage. A religion has the 1st Amendment right not to perform gay marriages if doing so would be in violation of their religious tenants, but this is not what is at issue. What we are talking about is letting gay people be married under secular law and getting all of the benefits that come with the marriage. In short, a religion may deny the “sanctity” of gay marriages and refuse to recognize such bonds for religious reasons, but the secular government should not be able to deny the secular benefits of marriage to gay couples that wish to marry.
Personally, I have always found the idea of gay marriage attacking the sanctity of marriage to be an amusing concept, particularly considering many of the champions of such attacks. I simply need to ask, if right wing champion of the “sanctity of marriage” Newt Gingrich’s pattern of cheating on and divorcing his wife when she gets sick or too old doesn’t damage marriage, how could giving the right to marry to a committed gay couple do any harm?
Whenever somebody makes the argument that marriage equality harms straight marriage, you should challenge them to tell you exactly how. Does it make them love their spouse any less or reduce their rights as a married couple in any way? Inevitably, they will default to a religious justification where you can simply make the argument that that is an issue for their church—the secular law should be independent from theology and the secular contract that is marriage is the only thing at issue. If they want to belong to a church that refuses to acknowledge that gay people are married within their religious ceremonies, then that is their prerogative, but this is no reason to deny gay people the secular benefits of marriage.
5) “Gay marriage and equal protections for homosexuals should be left up to the states.”
This argument is wrong for the exact same reason that racial and gender discrimination protections cannot be left up to a state-level vote: in our country, rights are not up to a vote, and it is the job of the federal government to ensure that every state gives every citizen equal protections under the law.
Letting states decide on civil rights (including equal protections and marriage rights) simply allows bigoted states to legislate discrimination. Such laws create disparities in the civil rights of minority groups based upon where they live in the country. In a progressive state, gay individuals would have equal rights under the law but in a conservative state, they would be devoid of legal protections against discrimination (if not discriminated against under the law).
In addition to the issue of equal protections, such state-level legal disparities create a severe problem when people start moving. For example, if a couple is married in MA but moves to TX, what happens to their marriage? Does their marriage become annulled when they move to a state that doesn’t recognize same-sex marriage? Do they have equal marriage privileges and ability to divorce as any other couple? What about a situation where gay couples that move into a state are allowed to stay married but gay couples who live in the state are barred from enjoying equal rights? Such situations violate the equal protections clause of the 14th Amendment and create a bizarre legal quagmire that really shows us why unequal civil rights in different states for a minority group cannot work.
It is important to note that this interpretation of the law is only my opinion and the Supreme Court is currently deciding on whether a state can ban gay marriage. The case of Hollingsworth v. Perry, where California’s “Proposition 8” gay marriage ban is being challenged, is still being decided on by the Supreme Court. As no decision has been given in this case, there is no conclusive stare decisis that would prevent states from banning gay marriage.
Until the Supreme Court rules in this case and (hopefully) interprets the constitution to render gay marriage bans unconstitutional, anybody who makes this argument should be refuted with a generalized rights argument. Do they want to live in a country where their rights may be limited by a state—or group of states—or would they like to live in a country where they have the same rights regardless of where they live? What happens when a state decides to attack them as a minority and this precedent is there to support the constitutionality of such an attack?
In numerous other situations (ex. segregation), it has been found that the federal government must ensure that states don’t infringe on a minority groups’ rights, regardless of state votes. If the Supreme Court follows the same legal reasoning as other civil rights and equal protections fights (ex. interracial marriage), they will make it unconstitutional for a state to restrict the marriage rights of homosexuals and will put this argument to bed.
6) “Gay people shouldn’t be allowed to adopt children because they are unfit parents.”
Put plainly, this argument is demonstrably false according to most of the statistical evidence that we have available. As far as we can tell, all unbiased data tells us that gay parents and straight parents of similar demographic groups have very similar results in raising children.
In general, this argument is based around the supposition that a child requires both a mother and a father to develop properly—this may appear logical on its face, but the evidence does not bear it out. Traditional gender roles (ex. father as the breadwinner and authoritarian and mother as the nurturing influence) are not as solid as many would claim, thus there is no real requirement for both a mother and a father to be present; a relationship with two women as the parents can easily provide the exact same levels of authority and nurture as a relationship between a man and a woman. It is certainly true that two-parent households often produce superior results to single-parent households, but this only support the argument for letting gay couples adopt. Regardless of what anybody says, same-sex households are demonstrably two-parent.
Numerous studies have looked at the results of stable same-sex households and have concluded that homosexual parents are just as competent as heterosexual parents. Children raised in same-sex households have no worse academic, psychological, or health results then children who grow up in demographically similar heterosexual households. In fact, many such studies have actually concluded that same-sex couples have statistically better results than the average heterosexual household.
The statistically high positive results for same-sex couples is likely due to the fact that such couples often rely on adoption for their children. Unlike straight couples, gay couples don’t accidentally have children, thus are statistically more likely to be ready to have children. The need to adopt or get in-vitro fertilization by same-sex couples completely removes the variable of unplanned parenthood and ensures that the parents are economically and psychologically prepared to raise their children. Adoption involves a vetting process before the couple is given children to raise and acts as a check to make sure that the parents are fit to raise children. While in-vitro fertilization doesn’t involve a vetting process, it is expensive and is only possible for relatively well-off couples that are highly motivated to have children—such couples are likely to take an interest in their children’s upbringing and have positive parenting results.
It is true that there are many studies which claim same-sex couples to be inferior in raising children, but most of these studies are heavily biased. Oftentimes, such studies are commissioned and paid for by anti-gay groups and have extreme methodological issues. These studies regularly claim that children raised by their biological parents in stable homes have an advantage over children raised in single parent or unmarried couple households; in a limited view, these studies are correct but they are presenting a deceptive narrative. By equating same-sex unmarried couples with single parent and unstable households, these studies skew the statistics on parenting results so that same-sex couples appear inferior. The bad results of unstable households are lumped together with the parenting statistics of stable same-sex households thus the average results appear deceptively below that of stable married couples.
When income and family stability are removed from the equation, the disparity in parenting results falls away and we see that gay couples are just as competent as straight couples. Some people may be deceived by misleading data presented by anti-gay groups (just as many are confused by oil money funded “climate studies” that reject climate change) but these people are simply wrong.
7) “It is a violation of the 1st Amendment to ban religious people from discriminating against gays.”
While everybody has the 1st Amendment right to believe in and practice a religion of their choice (or no religion at all), nobody has the right to violate another person’s civil rights in service of their religion.
In accordance with the protections of the 1st Amendment, the government is severely restricted in its ability to interfere with the internal workings of religious institutions and has no ability to exert control over religious dogma. Any religious organization can preach hatred towards homosexuals without fear of interference (case in point: the Westborough Baptist Church), but this protection has its limits.
Religious people/organizations have the constitutional right to:
- Label homosexuality a sin and condemn it in their churches.
- Refuse to perform gay marriages.
- Deny religious employment to any homosexual without worrying about discrimination lawsuits (ex. the government cannot force the Catholic Church to ordain a gay priest)
- Protest against homosexuals in a non-violent and orderly manner.
Religious people/organizations do not have the constitutional right to:
- Enforce their religious beliefs on others by inserting their sexual morality into law (ex. anti-sodomy laws).
- Preach or perpetrate violence against homosexuals.
- Attempt to forcibly “cure” homosexuals against their will (ex. kidnapping and attempting exorcisms)
- Engage in political activity that would violate a church’s non-profit status.
Basically, every religious person and organization has the ability to control their own personal beliefs and religious ceremonies, but their right to religious freedom ends when their conduct begins to harm others. Our government must stay out of churches, mosques and synagogues, but this also requires for religious institutions to be banned from encroaching on public life. If somebody believes in a religion, they can voluntarily put themselves under the religious laws/requirements of their faith, but these laws should have no effect on those who do not choose to be in the religion.
In short, you do have a 1st Amendment right to be a bigot until you start harming others. At that point, your conduct ceases to be protected religious beliefs and becomes a burden on others.
Most commonly, this argument is used to justify religious hate speech against homosexuals and to avoid anti-bullying laws. In terms of federal law, as long as an individual is not inciting violence, trespassing, or presenting a hazard, they are able to say even the vilest anti-gay rhetoric. The Snyder v. Phelps et. al. decision in 2011 decided that even the repulsive and disruptive funeral protesting of the Westborough Baptist Church was protected speech until they crossed these important lines. Unfortunately, this justification allows many religious groups to openly preach hatred against homosexuals while leaving there to be virtually no way to stop them.
Fortunately, the ability of religious groups to hide behind the 1st Amendment ends at their ability to extrude homosexuals from their ranks and say terrible things. Any time that a religious group attempts to claim that the 1st Amendment protects their right to legislate their beliefs, remind them of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. Just as their religious beliefs are protected from government intrusion, the amendment prevents them from inserting their religion into law. If they reject the idea that religions are barred from inserting themselves into politics, you can simply remind them that their religion isn’t the only one and that this protection is what prevents other religions from imposing on their members
There are situations which are illegal regardless of religious beliefs. Violence or calls for violence are against the law regardless of the perpetrator’s religious persuasions; as such, any hate crimes perpetrated by religious groups are not covered under the 1st Amendment’s protection of religious conduct. If an individual is calling for violence against gays (ex. sanctioning gay bashing or physical bullying) or perpetrating it themselves, they should be hit with not only the full force of the law, but any hate-crime sentencing enhancements that are applicable.
8) “Homosexuality isn’t protected by the law because sexual behavior is a choice.”
In order to make this argument, people make two specious assumptions: first, they assume that homosexuality is a choice and second, they assert that they have the right to legally ban a lifestyle choice which harms nobody.
First of all, most of the evidence that is available today indicates that homosexuality is at least partly biologically hardwired. It is no more a choice than whether or not one is left-handed or right-handed. It is likely that upbringing has some effect on sexual orientation, but it is still undeniably that the biological component has a significant effect on sexual orientation.
As an inborn characteristic, homosexual attraction is not something that can be changed and is not something that the law should discriminate against. Homosexuals harm nobody and deserve to have as much choice in their relationships as any straight American. Discriminating against gay people is as unfair as discriminating against a racial group—neither can change who they are and should anybody expect them to try.
Ultimately, even if homosexuality were a choice, there would still be no legal justification for the US government banning it. As I have previously mentioned, there is no compelling governmental interest that would justify the government interfering in the personal sex lives of gay Americans. This was confirmed in Lawrence v. Texas and there is simply no way for the government to constitutionally bar homosexuals from being in relationships.
Our country was founded, at least in part, on the idea of personal liberty and the right of individuals to control their own lives. To this end, our government is not able to restrict private conduct that has no negative consequences for others.
When people make this argument, they are almost always saying that homosexuals should ignore their natural attractions and should simply not engage in homosexual sex; sometimes, these people even suggest that entering into a relationship with a person of the opposite sex can turn them straight. Basically, they don’t care if homosexuals don’t change who they are, they just don’t want them to act on their attraction. This argument is just wrong on its face and almost always ends badly. When individuals repress their sexuality, they often develop severe psychological issues, including depression, suicidal thoughts, binge/deny behaviors, and misdirected sexual attraction (ex. celibate priests molesting children). Such behaviors are not healthy and can often result in harm to the individual as well as collateral damage to those around them.
My argument against this assertion is very simple: Unlike homosexual attraction, homosexual activity is a choice and is up to the individual. Just as Americans may choose their diet and their favorite type of music, everybody can choose who they are attracted to and what they want to do with their consenting partner. The second that we let our government start intruding on the personal lives of homosexuals, we open our own lives up to scrutiny. If the government can interfere in the sex lives of homosexuals, then it can reach into anybody’s lives and interfere with any activity of choice.
As a special note, I would also point out that religious and political affiliations are both choices that are just what anti-homosexual activists describe homosexuality as: voluntary activities that somebody can deny if they truly want to. If the government can say that homosexuals cannot engage in sex with the people that they choose, what prevents them from singling out a political party and saying that they cannot engage in the activities of their choice? After all, political activity is a choice and anybody can choose to re-orient themselves to another ideology. Almost anybody would say that such interference into a person’s private activities is a massive violation of privacy and personal choice. Despite this consensus, many still attempt to force homosexuals to change their personal behaviors. Is sexual conduct less personal than political expression?
9) “Gay people already have equal marriage rights because they are allowed to marry a person of the opposite sex.”
This argument is simply a rehashing of the old segregationist idea that interracial marriage isn’t a civil rights issue because everybody has the equal right to marry somebody of the same race. Just as with the issue of interracial marriage, this argument is false on its face and does nothing to mitigate how unfair the situation is.
“Each [party seeking to marry a member of a different race] has the right and the privilege of marrying within his or her own group.”
Perez v. Lippold dissenting opinion
The simple fact that an individual has the right to marry somebody that they don’t want to does nothing to blunt the intrusion when the government prevents them from marrying the person who they care for. Put plainly, we saw this movie before and we know how it ends: such ridiculous arguments are rejected by the courts and the right of people to marry the person of their choice is upheld—bigotry loses and logic prevails.
10. “Gay couples should be availed equal legal status but we shouldn’t call this status marriage.”
People who support this argument mean well—they are at least trying to make an effort at promoting equality—but they don’t propose a long term solution for gay equality.
Creating a pseudo-marriage statute (such as civil unions) in order to achieve compromise between the religious and homosexuals sounds good, but is actually only the perpetuation of bigotry. The creation of a stop-gap status in order to placate the gay community would reduce the pressure for politicians to push for true equality and would force gay couples into a legal second-class status.
Separate but equal has never worked in issues of civil rights, and there is no expectation that it would work with gay marriage. Just as with racial “separate but equal” laws, separation would easily be achieved, but equality would likely never arrive. It is highly likely that conservative states and groups would reduce the rights of gay couples far below that of straight couples if two types of marriage were to be created.
There is one potential solution to the problem created by this argument, but it would likely be politically impossible to pass. This solution would be to simply eliminate secular “marriage” and create one statute that would encompass all secular “marriages” and “civil unions.” The state would create a secular label for the current marriage bond and would leave the entire language of marriage to be decided by religious groups and the individuals. If a religion or couple wants to call their bond marriage, then that is their choice, but the state would refer to the bond in a religiously neutral manner; people who are currently married would be unaffected other than the legal label of their bond being changed in the tax code/law books. In essence, this would ensure that every couple—gay or straight—would have the rights guaranteed under current marriage statutes (preferential tax statuses, spousal privilege, etc.), but no religion could claim that the marriage bond is being sullied.
11. “Gay couples cannot produce children so they should not be given the right to marry.”
The ability to reproduce is not, and has never been, a legal requirement for marriage. Adding such a requirement for the right to marry now is both unfair and would have serious legal ramifications.
First of all, adding the ability to reproduce as a requirement to marry is just an excuse to discriminate against gay people. There is no rational reason why the government would impose such a requirement on couples who wish to marry (we aren’t exactly facing a shortage of reproducing couples). Put plainly, this requirement is reverse-engineered to ban gay marriage equality and serves no purpose in the secular law
If we should prevent gay couples from marrying simply because they cannot reproduce, then why shouldn’t we stop other infertile Americans from being married as well? Men with low sperm counts, who have had vasectomies, or who have another type of reproductive disorder are as unable to reproduce with their partner as any homosexual; the same for women who are post-reproductive age, infertile due to illness, or who have undergone sterilization surgery. Banning gay marriage based upon this requirement would throw the marriages of these infertile individuals into question and would illegitimize a huge percentage of marriages.
Anybody to make this argument should be very careful what they wish for: if they get their way, they may find that their marriage ends as soon as they are too old or sick to reproduce.
12. “Gay marriage opens up a slippery slope to marriage with animals, children and inanimate objects”
There is no nice way to say this: If you are using this argument, you are either incredibly stupid, believe that your listener is incredibly stupid, or are dredging up the bottom of the barrel for justifications for your bigotry.
In marriage—gay or straight—two legal adults are making a consensual vow to become legally bound in marriage or civil union. As animals, children and inanimate objects are incapable of consenting to such a vow, there is no comparison to be made with gay marriage. Equating the consensual marriage of two adults with child or animal marriage is taking the slipper-slope argument to an absurd and ridiculous extreme.
Just as with several other anti-gay rights arguments, this one is a retread of an old anti-interracial marriage argument:
“The underlying factors that constitute justification for laws against miscegenation closely parallel those which sustain the validity of prohibitions against incest and incestuous marriages.”
Perez v. Lippold dissenting opinion
Despite what the bigots argued back then there was no flood of incestuous marriages after interracial marriages were legalized in the United States. Now, the same type of argument is being used by a new group of bigots to attack gay marriage equality—unsurprisingly, these assertions will turn out to be just as false as the anti-interracial marriage assertions were during the last big fight over marriage.
The Progressive Cynic 
Is the phrasing of #9 backwards? I’ve heard people argue that gay individuals have the same rights as strait individuals because they are free to marry someone of the opposite sex.
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No, there are many conservatives who claim that gay people have equal marriage rights for the simple reason that they can choose to marry somebody of the opposite sex.
For example, here is a quote from Bachmann from the 2012 primary: “Every American citizen has the right to avail themselves of marriage, but they have to follow what the laws are, and the laws are you marry a person of the opposite sex.”
Logically speaking, you are completely correct to note the logical fallacy of this statement and think that I simply misspoke but, unfortunately, this is one of the arguments.
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I think we’re agreeing. It’s a ridiculous argument from “the right”. I’m just pointing out that #9 reads as follows:
“Gay people already have equal marriage rights because they are allowed to marry a person of the same sex.”
If gay people could marry people of the same sex, then there wouldn’t be a problem, 🙂
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Thank you for catching that! I changed the typo.
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What about those homosexuals who sue a private institution, who has a right to refuse service, because the pastor refuses to marry them? What about those homosexuals who sued the Catholic church for refusing to adopt to homosexual couples, thus causing them to shut down a service that was very beneficial? I understand not all homosexuals do this, but marriage needs to be protected for cases similar to this.
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As far as a private employer is concerned, unless their business is of a primarily religious nature, then they have no right to treat people differently based upon having a lack of religious marriage–we see this very same situation in the fight over contraception coverage. If you were to have a business and were to discriminate in this manner, you would be opening yourself up to a very unpleasant lawsuit.
Your Catholic example actually proves my point–civil rights protections bar them from performing their services in a discriminatory manner, so they choose to voluntarily shut down.
If private institutions would rather shut down than offer their services equitably, then that is there prerogative. We cannot tailor civil rights law to placate bigots and prevent them from pulling a figurative “I will take my ball and go home.” If these institutions were to reject interracial couples and threaten to simply shut down, would you also support eliminating interracial marriage?
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“If these institutions were to reject interracial couples and threaten to simply shut down, would you also support eliminating interracial marriage?”
The difference is, race is an inborn, GENETIC trait.
Homosexuality, is not..
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Actually, most modern research indicates that homosexuality is a biological trait with co-factors for environment, thus it IS inborn. As such, it is directly analogous to the race situation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa
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This is directed towards GetAware’s statement:
“The difference is, race is an inborn, GENETIC trait.
Homosexuality, is not..”
It is true that there isn’t a “gay gene” or a particular gene responsible for causing homosexual, but just because something is not GENETIC – it does not mean that it cannot still be innate. For example new studies have shown that epigenetics (study of epi-marks that help regulate in gene expression) plays a crucial role in homosexuality. These epi-marks determine how much a particular gene is turned on or off, so genes responsible for the release of androgens (testosterones) and how much of it is expressed can really impact a person’s sexual orientation mixed with other factors involved during development in the environment as you mature on through adolescence and into adulthood. You cannot wake up one day and say “Oh I think I’ll be among the minority in the US who have long had their rights infringed upon and have been subjugated with a barrage of insults and discrimination just so I can fulfill my temporary lust for the same sex” That’s not how it works.
Any questions, comments or concerns then feel free to ask. I digress on going into detail about the biological/biochemistry behind epigenetic as there is a lot jargon and I do not know how well rehearsed you are in the scientific field as someone like me who studies these things on a daily basis. Not trying to sound arrogant or anything :P.
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Hmm, no ill effect on society you say? What about the health care costs? If we want to tax sugar, we should also tax sodomy. If people knew what this behavior cost them, there would be a lot of minds changed!
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…and your arguments are based on what study?
In reality, “sodomy” is a large catch-all for non-vaginal sex that includes behaviors that huge numbers of Americans participate in. If you want to go into their bedrooms and try taxing them, go ahead, but expect to hit a brick wall when people realize the consequences of your actions.
That said, even if gay people had slightly higher lifetime healthcare costs (and this is simply not true), then it wouldn’t be proper to intrude on them and increase their taxes. Ignorance is immensely costly to society, yet we don’t tax stupid people more than intelligent people. Fat people cost more then skinny people, and we don’t see the government attacking them. Finally, red states cost much more to the feds then blue states (on average, they take FAR more federal welfare), yet we don’t see the federal government increasing taxes on just red state populations.
Go ahead with trying to set this precedent, but pray that you aren’t among the fat, ignorant, red state demographic (basically, the GOP base) when the very same taxation is turned against you.
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Thank you for this wonderful blog entry. Being gay myself, I always thought that discriminating against homosexuals is simply illogical. In my country (Poland), many people oppose gay rights because a) their knowledge of the subject is solely based on politically-motivated opinions expressed in the media; b) noone publicy refutes invalid anti-gay arguments like you did. In fact, if you don’t mind, I would love to translate this post into Polish and use it in my private ideological “battles” against discrimation I sometimes wage with people I know.
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Thanks for reading; please feel free to translate and re-post this article in any way that you like.
Good luck pushing back against bigotry,
Josh Sager
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Religious “tenets,” not “tenants”!
(in this paragraph:
Homosexuality may be a religious sin, but it is not immoral and has no detrimental effect on society. There is simply no real secular justification for any legal discrimination against gays, and all attempts to discriminate against gays in the law can be traced back to bigotry and religious tenants.
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Pingback: Ziser Rides Again – The Sole Support for Nevada’s Gay Marriage Ban? | Desert Beacon
“Gay” is not normal to anyone. It is, though treatable as well as preventable. The real science is at http://www.narth.com.
Josh Sager’s contempt for nature and religion is sad.
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As I mention in the article, homosexuality is “normal” and “natural” in that it has been exhibited in hundreds of individual species, across the planet.
NARTH is a pathetic scam group, not taken seriously by anybody in the medical or psychological fields, that bilks desperate self-hating gays out of their money while promising to cure something that is written into their genetic code.
That said, I do have contempt for religion and the religious when their stone-age beliefs start to creep into the modern era and oppress people (or when these religious people start flying planes into buildings, raping children, or convincing people not to seek medical help).
Fortunately for you, unlike homosexuality, ignorance and religious extremism are treatable, while stupidity is manageable, so you might actually have a chance at a relatively normal life.
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I see you are a Bigot. Also A little lacking in knowledge if you don’t know the harm in homosexual sex. You do realize that AIDS would not exist in the human race if it was not for homosexual sex.
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you truly are incompetent, we are originally based of of a republic fool!
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I apologize in advance for sounding impatient by asking this, but are you working on the trans article? Or planning to?
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I have been very busy and working on other projects recently, but I do intend to write that article sometime in the near future.
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What a wonderful article/analysis. Thank you.
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This is fantastic….thank you so much for putting everything I’ve thought into well articulated words!!!
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You say that homosexuality has no detremental effects on society, but the first cases of aids, one of the leading killers in the world, originated in gay men. Tell me that’s natural. Also, recent studies HAVE shown that homosexuality isn’t genetically created, but often results from a lack of male (for guys) or female (for girls) bonding. I would also like to know how “don’t ask don’t tell” is discrimination since the whole point of it is to prevent descrimination.
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1) The Spanish Flu, that killed 50-100 million people was first recorded in a French town–does this make it a health risk to be French? Blaming gay people for AIDS (which actually kills more straight people anyway) is ridiculous.
2) You are simply incorrect, as homosexuality has been proven to be, at least in part, genetic. Also, it appears in virtually every mammalian and avian population, thus is, by definition, “natural.”
3) Don’t ask don’t tell is discrimination because it targets a minority group and forces them to conceal their identity. If the military decided to target Christians similarly (ex. forcing them to sneak to church and hide any religious symbols), you would likely recognize this for what it is.
Regardless, none of your points justify the persecution of homosexuals.
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So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, THEY SUFFERED WITHIN THEMSELVES THE PENALTIES THEY DESERVED.
SINCE THEY THOUGHT IT FOOLISH TO ACKNOWLEDGE GOD, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die(WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH), yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (NLT)
Repent and be baptized in the Holy Spirit!!! Christ loves all of you! he knows each and every persons heart…. accept him as lord and savior and i promise he wont let you down!!!
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No, no it didnt. Read an article, watch a documentary. Aids and HIV was introduced into the human population by eating raw “Bush Meat”. That means raw monkey/ape meat. Homosexuality did not cause it. As well, aids spreads through the non homosexual population as well. How dare you blame an illness like that on homosexuality. It is just horrendously untrue.
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Well articulated arguments. Great efforts in defending equality and changing minds – one bigot at a time!
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It is so amusing that so many people in this country focus on gay marriage! I never focus on heterosexual marriage, and that is probably because I am not heterosexual. However, I see too many heterosexual people concerning themselves with homosexuals and their relationships. For those interested in my life, please send me a check and pay my bills, then you may get me to broaden your concern into my life a bit more. I know us gay people are so fascinating and everything, but do you really think obsessing about us is healthy for your own mind? Stop that, it’s really sad.
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Here is some stuff you might want to say is a “lie” or “bigotry” homosexuality is a mental disease, homosexuality alters the primal instincts that all living things have to survive and reproduce. Homosexuality replaces reproducing with AIDs sharing and anal sex. Good day and if you fear you have this disease seek medical attention as quickly as possible.
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I’m straight too, but I don’t agree with all of your claims. Sexual attraction is not a choice, but sexual behavior is. In other words, if you’re born with natural instinct to be sexually attracted to other men, that’s not a choice. But if you choose to have a sexual relationship with another man, that’s a choice all gay people have made, making the claim the sexuality is not a choice invalid.
States that don’t support gay marriage, (such as Texas, Utah, Louisiana, Alabama, etc) absolutely have the right to do so and no one can force them to change their minds and accept something that they in their right minds don’t support. What makes same sex “marriage” a civil right? Marriage is not a given right, it’s a privilege. The US Supreme Court does not have the right to redefine it to fit the standards of the minority. It’s not about equal rights anymore, which would mean educational benefits, voting rights, and more, which the African American Civil Rights movement was about. So therefore, Black Civil Rights and Gay “Marriage” are not compatible if one focused on general acceptance for society to get other people equal legal rights, and the other focused on redefining a thousand year old institution that many good, honest people are in favor of protecting, preserving, and defending, as well as silencing and punishing any person who has the guts to step up and say “I don’t support this.”
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You are demonstrably wrong. The Supreme Court has every right to regulate equal access to marriage and has done so since even before the Loving v. Virginia interracial marriage case. Additionally, the right to marry was a major civil rights fight that you are simply ignoring. States do not have the right to discriminate against minorities unless there is a very compelling social interest to do so (ex. the minority of pedophiles are rightly prosecuted).
Beyond all that, marriage has shifted greatly over the years and the entire idea of marriage as we know it today is actually very new. Until relatively recently, the woman was legally the property of the man and marriage was restricted inside of races; before that, polygamy was the norm and most marriages were arranged (this is the “biblical marriage” that right wingers don’t realize that they promote).
You can be as bigoted as you want–after all, I agree with the ACLU in their decision to protect free speech by letting the KKK march openly and peacefully in the streets–but that ends the second you try to enforce your bigotry via the rule of law. In short, stand up all you want, but be prepared for the federal government to enforce equal rights on your state and for future generations to look back on you poorly.
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Josh Sager,
THANK YOU for this well-reasoned, cohesive, coherent blog post, free of name-calling, and filled with well-reasoned common sense and logical examples. We need more debate like this in the blogosphere and in the public square! Keep blogging!
I do not favor same-gender marriage based on my Christian religious beliefs. At the same time, I cannot square marginalizing or deliberately disadvantaging groups of people, however situated, under the civil law, nor can I square criminalizing private adult consensual sexual behavior with or under the civil law. True Christian teaching and morality require, above all, to love all people and to respect the civil law unless it is unjust or oppressive. If so we are required to resist.
My biggest concern on the same gender civil marriage issue is that Christian churches who do not wish to solemnize same-gender marriage on consistent religious beliefs and practice not be attacked with the force of law. Holding a (now) unpopular belief or engaging in a religious practice that is (now) unpopular, or even offensive, should be permitted and respected. It should not be criminalized. Christian Religious teaching should not be classified as hate speech. I am prepared for people not approving of my beliefs or practices. That is their choice. I should be allowed to share and explain my beliefs, and give witness to them by my example as well (this is hard because I fail so often). I should be allowed to do this in church, in the public square and in my family without being attacked. I believe the Holy Spirit works to convert hearts and minds, and my witness (by speech and example, no matter how imperfect) can further God’s Kingdom. Conversion is an internal experience of heart and mind that happens when people hear the Gospel and God’s Word.
I do heartily agree that public and commercial goods and services are for all without reservation. Religious practices are for those who agree and adopt those beliefs and practices. No church, denomination, congregation or clergy should be ever be required to celebrate or solemnize marriage which does not conform to their religious beliefs. The Catholic Church does not marry (civilly) divorced persons unless they also submit to a canonical “annulment”.
I wish that civil marriage was completely separate and required to be legally married, and that marriage within the church was a solemnizing of the beliefs of the couple within the community / teachings and practices of any given church or denomination.
God bless you, your family, and your good work.
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Thank you.
Your personal religious convictions aside, it is undeniable that Christian dogma as currently expressed by many Christians is a form of hate-speech against gays. While most are more subtle than the people from the Westborough Baptist Church, the denouncement of an subset of the population as immoral, disturbed, unnatural. corrupt, or evil based upon who they are (homosexuality is, at least in part, biologically wired) is a form of bigotry. You have every right to hold bigoted beliefs and I will never try to punish anybody for saying something offensive, but that doesn’t mean that I won’t point out hatred and bigotry where I see it.
Your beliefs may be somewhat bigoted in rhetoric, but at least you have the integrity to support equal rights in practice. I think that you would support this solution to the gay marriage debate: https://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/01/23/a-simple-solution-to-marriage-equality-separate-secular-unions-from-religious-marriage/
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Well I find it quite close-minded and bigoted that you automatically assume everyone is Christian just because we are against gay marriage. Also, as homosexuality may be “biologically wired” as you put it, so is mental retardation. Heterosexuality is what humans are instinctively supposed to do, anything else is a defect in the mind, so stop pointing out these people’s disease and saying anti-gays hate them, most don’t hate homosexuals but are simply against it because it’s plain wrong whether that’s because of their religious belief or scientific fact. So stop forcing everyone to accept gays, if they want to accept this disease instead of trying to find a cure to it then go ahead, but don’t force normal people to accept it and if they don’t call them a bigot.
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Whenever some bigot decides to compare homosexuality to mental retardation (yeah, you did), and then demands that no one call them a bigot, it makes me chuckle.
You don’t have to accept homosexuality, just like I don’t accept your bigotry. But if you choose to shoot your mouth off in public and announce your ignorance, expect “normal” people, like me, to point and laugh.
At least people who cite religion have some excuse (though not a good one). You don’t even have that.
And before some idiot brings it up, no, I do not have to tolerate your intolerance.
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Why is the term “bigot” and “bigotry” used only in reference to those who oppose homosexuality and other politically correct concepts and topics? The definition of the word in several dictionaries does not include sexual orientation, race or other constructs. The word simply means “holding and promoting strong opinions” and an unwillingness to tolerate other points of view. Given this, many of you who are supportive of LGBT issues and do not support organized religion are also bigots. I am a black female. I long ago learned to accept that some people will not like me or even hate me because of my skin color. I DON’T CARE! I’ve learned to live my life and accept that people have a right to not accept me. The LGBT community will need to do the same. Agree to disagree and stop the name calling! We can’t bully people into believing or accepting a point of view. You can create laws to protect those from discrimination based on those views however. I believe that marriage is an institution created and ordained by God because I believe in God and believed this is his plan for humanity. He also gives us the free will to not follow his or embrace his plans. Many people chose to do this. This is their right. I am not an ignorant, religious zealot. I am an educated person but I also live with a Christian world view. I accept that you and others have the right not to believe. Many who feel like you do are anti religious and hold much contempt for religion and look for issues, like gay marriage, as a reason to attack Christians in particular. Never mind that many other major religions also reject same sex marriage and homosexuality. In a secular society, I think allowing same sex marriage is fair and just. Our government is secular. While our government CAN make it legal, it can’t force people to accept it if they do not embrace the concept. This is what’s happening and it will eventually backfire. People are getting tired of having their religious ideals and liberty attacked.
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People used religion to justify mixed race marriages not long ago, and homosexuality was illegal in the US more recently than that.
With Alabama, marriage equality is the law of the land in 37 states and counting. You don’t have too accept it, but you’re going to have to accept that you can’t impose your interpretation of your religion on others. At least not for much longer.
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Typo – religion was used to justify OUTLAWING mixed race marriages.
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People use religion to justify a lot of things. Starvation,war,murder,bigotry in all forms That is why I have chosen to live a spiritual life. Which by the way,has no relation to religion.
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The problem with your so called ‘Christian world view’,is that it is looked at through a toilet paper tube,and anyone who does not agree with it,is bound to have the finger pointed at them,with a ‘you are going to hell’ condemnation along with it, which only the Creator has the right to do by the way. After seeing the proliferation of the ‘born again’ hate mongers,who have narrowed the definition of the term Christian, It is no wonder why I have rejected organized religion.
Every so often,some obnoxious fool has the gall to ask me,’are you a Christian?” A question nobody should be asking of strangers(and it is none of their business anyway) My response is ‘If you mean Christian Conservative(which is a contradiction in terms since Jesus was a reformer,If you mean narrow minded,if you mean condemnation of others if they don’t share my beliefs,if you mean twisting and distorting scripture to fit a socio-political agenda(like Pat Robertson) If you mean ignoring those teachings of the man from Nazareth that don’t fit that agenda(love,charity,tolerance)
then the answer is a resounding NO! and I thank my Creator every day that I am not.
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I have no problem with same sex marriage,and see nothing about it that is a threat to traditional marriage except inside narrow minds,and their preconceived notions that were installed in by preachers and Rush Limbaugh.
The biggest threat to traditional marriage is DIVORCE! Not gay marriage. Considering the high divorce rate,shouldn’t gay couples have the same right to be as miserable as the rest of you married people seem to be?
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Hi I’m Ally. I’d like to interview you for a research project in English that I’m doing. I’m for gay rights and I’d like to interview a gay individual and show their point of view on things. 🙂 If you would not like to, that is no problem. But if you would like to, that’d be great!
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Unfortunately for your purposes, I am not gay. I support gay-rights because that is the morally correct thing to do, not because I have any personal stake in the matter.
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“morally correct thing to do”… every generations before us has come to the conclusion that they should longer practice this… (those who ignore the past tends to repeat (mistakes))
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Really nigga?
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For those commenting with a religious viewpoint, have you ever consider how God graced you by giving you lifelong exposure to the “true” religion and is punishing all the other people who misfortune it was to be born into families that practice “untrue” religions? 11 of 12 actively religious adults practice the faith or unfaith they were born into. One would think the truth would be more obvious than that. Read a book or two, challenge your beliefs, whatever they are, ALWAYS look at the other side of the argument for perspective. Otherwise you are arriving at an opinion driven by emotion and not rationalizing your way to any truth, religious or otherwise. Science, a rational pursuit, is true, or attempts to be, whether you believe in it or not.
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Christianity was birthed in the middle east!! the literal navel of the earth.. Christianity has spread over the ENTIRE EARTH…so none of this “oh your born here..so your at a disadvantage with God because you live in a communist country that will send your a$$ to a concentration camp, or in a Muslim country where they stone and behead Christians..nonsense”..in fact it makes you wonder why all of this hate on Christ and his followers? ( and we are labelled haters…OH sweet irony) And WHY are people willing to die and live a life of toil and persecution for an opinion? perhaps you should look to the other side for perspective( and why not recommend to all those other people who are unjustly born into “untrue” religions to broaden their perspective with the BIBLE! IF THEIR FAMILY OR COUNTRY DON’T INCARCERATE OR MURDER THEM FOR IT first)…ever wonder how a hard core atheist or a radical Muslim become a BORN AGAIN SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVER in CHRIST?
I IMPLORE you to reconsider Christ as your Lord and Savior..eternity is a long time without Love, kindness, light, happiness…which is what Christ is…… he is the source of all good things..deny him..deny yourself any good thing….remember he loves you and only wants to to do the same for him…so go ahead be bold in a wicked world LOVE Christ with all your heart..he will never let you down!!!
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As a gay man I am well acquainted to the “haters” who follow your particular Sun God. The Jews were never in Egypt. The great flood never happened. The story of Genesis was based off of Canaanite and other middle eastern Creation Myths. This is what evidence has shown. Your God is dead. And if he is not, I will choose hell if it is all the same to you.
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First, let me state that your article shows the kind of sense we all wish our government would have on a daily basis…and doesn’t…, and I won’t even hope for this kind of sense in people, and while I agree on most points, I would like to add just a couple of thoughts of my own. First homosexuality (though the word doesn’t actually apply in the animal kingdom, you get my meaning) in the animal kingdom is exclusively male. Now while there are some “lesbian” pair bonded, there is no actual sex. This doesn’t prove homosexuality (for a lack of a better word) is “natural” it just proves that males, being physiologically driven to mate, will do so, in whatever way is available to them. This behavior is also observed by the the drunk guy at the bar, taking home a woman that wouldn’t attract him at all when he’s sober. I think that the better arguments would be that little of what humans do would be accepted as “normal” (I hate that word) if found in the animal kingdom. I ever see a lion reading on a kindle, I’m done. Normal for humans cannot be equated or drawn from lesser animals, we’re supposed to be better than that.
One of the things I’ve heard here in my area (northwest Arkansas), “it’s all for one, one for all” So the subject is treated as a whole rather than the parts. While I have no problem with gay couples getting the legal status of “Married”, I do have issue with someone with a penis going in the ladies room where my wife and daughter are. I don’t feel that is a bigotry, just a fear for their safety, but I may be wrong. So, from me personally, thank you for addressing this individually. I personally subscribe to the philosophy of “It’s really not any of my business” but after reading, I think perhaps I need to take a greater personal interest in the politics here. Bigotry is the enemy here, regardless of who the victims are. So thank you for that as well.
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Thanks for the compliments and for reading.
On your first point, you are simply wrong: lesbian animals have been recorded having sex in over a hundred species. http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals
On your second point, you need to distinguish between transsexualism and homosexuality. Statistically speaking, there is little overlap between the homosexual and transsexual populations thus your worries about a man in a women’s room is really a different issue. That issue is complex and I really don’t know where I stand on a generalized policy (ex. a post-op transsexual is now a member of the other gender and should be considered as such, while some guy who just puts on a dress to be allowed to peek on women is obviously not somebody who should be allowed to do so).
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Thanks for the link, I looked for one myself to no avail, so it’s enlightening to see. I hereby stand corrected. 🙂
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Well I believe that people should marry whomever they want even if it is the same gender. Marriage is about love not gender. Well have a problem with same sex couples go ahead and laugh at what I am about to say…. Hi my name is Izabella Pavel I am 13 years old but the thing is…I am straight. But I will defend same sex couples because if they love someone of the same gender then so be it. Yes, they are different, but so are you and me and everyone else on this god forsaken planet. But honey let me tell you, it is the only thing that makes us human. Is being different. I don’t care if you are a religious person or not but if you love someone of the same gender listen to your heart not to the people that make fun of you because you are different or attracted to the same or maybe even both genders. I dislike it when people make fun of someone who is either different or attracted to the same gender. Because I used to get bullied because of either I dressed differently or if I sing people will just discourage me and tell me I am no good. Well when I moved to a new town after two years I sang solo in front of 1/3 of eighth graders and they told me I was great. What I am trying to say is if you get discouraged because you are attracted to the same gender, who gives a crap what they think you are you and no one can change that. Embrace it, not erase it. What I am saying is coming from the heart if you are different then listen to what I am saying. PLEASE.
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I love your article and all of it makes sense, but how do you deal with people who refuse to believe that you didn’t choose to be gay? I really hate it when people think they know me better than I know myself.
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I actually don’t run into that problem personally. I am straight thus don’t really face bigots trying to tell me what I think on this issue.
That said, I am an atheist, and have experienced this in regard to accusations of my “hating god.” When faced with this, I just assume that the person is irrational and scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments. I will simply discard their argument as a base straw-man and point out that they have no way of knowing what I am thinking (I will also occasionally mock them by asking them to guess what number I am thinking about).
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The word bigotry is over-used, I do value it’s use in the it’s context but does become tedious to read.
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Jsager99- I find it interesting that you did not respond to Krive94 “Why is the term “bigot” and “bigotry” used only in reference to those who oppose homosexuality and other politically correct concepts and topics? The definition of the word in several dictionaries does not include sexual orientation, race or other constructs. The word simply means “holding and promoting strong opinions” and an unwillingness to tolerate other points of view. Given this, many of you who are supportive of LGBT issues and do not support organized religion are also bigots.”
I agree with her totally… I used to support the Gay Agenda… Was totally sucked in and brainwashed… Until I started getting slammed by them in public for being straight. I was in a gay karaoke bar (wandered in by accident while on business and I’m thinking no problem I am ok) and saw I guy who was gay announce himself as gay before his song and then dedicated his song to a ‘straight’ friend of his (who was not there) and when he said the word ‘straight’ the whole room boooo ed him! I instantly felt VERY out of place… As gay and lesbians all around me started talking negatively about ‘straight’ people… Wow was that an eye opener… Can you explain that?! I have never spoken bad about the gay community as a whole or individually… That experience stuck with me and I could not forget it.
So I started researching the real side of who the Gay community is… It is interesting that the gay community does not “market” certain parts or people in their community…. There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association
(NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States. Whoa. Don’t see that on Dateline or the sitcoms…
Homosexuals can be heard chanting “TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH, RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT” in their homosexual parades. A group called the “Lesbian Avengers” prides itself on trying to recruit young girls. They print “WE RECRUIT” on their literature. Some other homosexuals aren’t as overt about this, but rather try to infiltrate society and get into positions where they will have access to the malleable minds of young children (e.g., the clergy, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, etc.). See the DC Lesbian Avengers web page, and DC Lesbian Avengers Press Release, where they threaten to recruit little boys and girls.
I was pretty shocked to read this stuff… But the one that pushed me over the edge was a quote by Michael Swift, Gay Community News, 2/15/87
(I did not put it all here because it is LONG but you can google Michael Swift, Gay Community News, 2/15/87 and read all of it)
“We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all-male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.
The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.
All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All i that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.”
So, sir, you are straight… How do you feel about a group that you support treating you this way? I am specifically talking about the karaoke bar personal incident that changed me for forever… I believe that the gay community has two faces… One pretty one that they show for marketing then the true face of bigotry and lies… I just want to throw up every time I think of it. You can now call ME the progressive cynic.
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So, to recap: You had one anecdotal experience at a gay bar that left you with the impression that gay people don’t like straight people and found one quote from an insane/possibly criminal gay person from the 80s, so you reject gay rights?
Additionally, you are using the wrong definition of the term bigotry, as the common use of the term in this context is a person who is biased against an entire demographic group based upon a set of common characteristics (and yes, this can refer to my own views: for example, I am bigoted and intolerant against anti-gay bigots, racists, and misogynists).
Finally, you are conflating pedophilia with homosexuality in a completely unfair manner. NAMBLA isn’t a pro-gay group–it is a pro-pedophilia group that happens to focus on males. Pedophilia and is a psychosexual disorder, not a sexual orientation, and most predators who molest children of the same sex identify and live as straight.
Please reassess your arguments, as they are completely fallacious. There is no such thing as the “gay agenda” beyond them fighting to obtain the same rights that the rest of us enjoy. You may cite isolated, extreme and questionable cases, but that does nothing to change reality.
P.S. I don’t respond to everybody because I get dozens of emails a day and am juggling paid work, an internship, my MPA workload, writing new blog posts, practicing BJJ, and trying to maintain a semblance of a social life.
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Yes, that one experience at the gay bar was enough. And you can down play it… You can say it is not true… And you can put me down… No the bar experience was not anecdotal (assuming you are using the dictionary definition and not some commonly used definition that some may or may not be aware of). It was real, all too real, and a part of you KNOWS it was real. Scary actually. I suddenly felt shocked and betrayed. I have since wondered if this attitude (or viewpoint) is the norm and have been told by a random sample of the local gay community (I told them that they were helping me write a piece for a blog) that, yes, many gays feel anger and resentment toward Straights, Heterosexuals, Asexuals, Christians and others.
What happened to me is called Straight Bashing. You cannot tell me that that it was not bulling and Straight Bashing by gays toward a people group and that there are obviously some anger issues there.
I find it interesting that you so easily redefine bigotry to suit your own beliefs while others here, including me, look to a dictionary as our compass for defining. It would not surprise me if the gays got the definition of bigotry (and other words) changed too, to suit their needs.
Why is NAMBLA allowed to identify with and participate in the gay pride parades across the US?! Thats confusing… Also you and others define pedophilia as a psychosexual disorder and not an orienation… It is interesting that homosexuality was once thus defined, but was redefined. Just because we are uncomfortable with or proud of a psychosexual disorder does not mean we should or should not redefine it to meet our needs. But some find it advantageous to bully and harass the psychiatric leaders into redefining words as they see fit. So gays don’t want to identify with pedophiles? Hmmmm which face is that? You will have to forgive me, my cynicism is showing. Maybe I can start a group- the cynisexual orientation.
I don’t think that it would be very difficult for the pedophile community to redefine pedophilia from a psychosexual disorder to an orientation. Get some good marketing people and put them on the job writing some sitcoms (those cute silly pedophiles!!) put them on some talk shows, get the American people to feel sorry for their plight… How they have been bullied to even death in some cases… Get the college and high schoolers to have a day of silence for them, get some sympathetic pro pedophile bigot to write smart sounding blogs, have some hollywood actors come out of the pedophile closet… I think it would be fairly easy in a few years for pedophiles to find success. After all, gays have paved the way.
So how do you answer the recruiting that gays and lesbians do? Why would they do that when being gay is believed by the gays to be a genetic thing? How can it be genetic when people are welcomed to just ‘decide’ to be gay? Cynthia Nixon publically did that and the gay community was up in arms about what she said, apparently she had not gotten the gay memo on how to market and say the correct thing in pubic.
So this gay person who wrote the “satirical” Gay Manifesto piece for the gay newspaper was a criminal? How dare you? He was/is gay and deserving of our worship! By the way, as you may know, Michael Swift was a pseudonym. There was an underlying seething rage in what he wrote that made it hard for me to believe that it was 100% satirical, though. It was more like someone venting. If it was published, that meant that some people at the newspaper liked it and thought their readers would like it, therefore I can conclude that a lot of gays harbor those same sentiments to some degree.
I like people regardless of their faith or no faith or beliefs or no beliefs etc. but I cannot tolerate bullies. Nazis were bullies, white supremacists are and slave owners were (still are in some countries) kids in school and teachers are… Parents can be and pet owners too. The list could go on and on. Bigots (as defined in the dictionary and as defined by you and what you call popular opinion) are bullies. I think we can definitely agree on that, right? So I guess you are a bully, sir, by your own statement “bigoted and intolerant against anti-gay bigots, racists, and misogynists” so I cannot respect you or you opinion very much. I know you will eagerly want to respond to my comments but please don’t bother. (Even though I did ask a couple of questions, I realize you answers will be filtered through your bigotry toward me). As I see it, the gay bullies are bullying the bullies and vice versa. Can’t we all just learn to love?
In closing, You can say all day long that my arguments are completely fallacious but all it takes is one bulling situation for a human being (or an animal) to mistrust the one/ones doing the bulling. Until I see a different attitude toward Straights (and apparently other people groups) by the gay community, I will be mistrustful. I have seen the real face. I cannot get their voices and faces out of my head. I will be sharing this experience with all who will hear me. I think everyone need to know.
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Anecdotal is “not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.” Your views on homosexuality are based on a bad personal account and thusly do not necessarily mean that your view is right since it has been COMPLETELY OBSCURED by said experience. I’ve participated in multiple LGBTQ groups and have found nothing like what you have experienced in or towards any of the members.
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“Why is NAMBLA allowed to identify with and participate in the gay pride parades across the US?! Thats confusing… Also you and others define pedophilia as a psychosexual disorder and not an orienation… It is interesting that homosexuality was once thus defined, but was redefined. Just because we are uncomfortable with or proud of a psychosexual disorder does not mean we should or should not redefine it to meet our needs. But some find it advantageous to bully and harass the psychiatric leaders into redefining words as they see fit. So gays don’t want to identify with pedophiles? Hmmmm which face is that? You will have to forgive me, my cynicism is showing. Maybe I can start a group- the cynisexual orientation.”
You speak several
NAMBLA has been banned from gay pride parades for awhile: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/tag/nambla
Not to mention that “bully and harass the psychiatric leaders into redefining words as they see fit” is a complete distortion of the truth: https://web.archive.org/web/20060107180013/http://www.ralliance.org/tvc_apa.html
“So this gay person who wrote the “satirical” Gay Manifesto piece for the gay newspaper was a criminal? How dare you? He was/is gay and deserving of our worship! By the way, as you may know, Michael Swift was a pseudonym.” No one but you mentioned him, so this is a case of complaining a bit too much
https://web.archive.org/web/20051024152105/http://rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/GayAgenda.html
Without these you only have your unsubstantiated anecdote to fall back on
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[Until I see a different attitude toward Straights (and apparently other people groups) by the gay community, I will be mistrustful. I have seen the real face. I cannot get their voices and faces out of my head. I will be sharing this experience with all who will hear me. I think everyone need to know.]
What nonsense. You are a plant. You never went in a gay karaoke bar, were never abused, never saw the “real face” of homosexuality – you don’t have gay friends, and you only mention this bullying incident all of one time. The rest of your slurry of nonsense came from NARTH, point for point, and other hate groups like NOM. If you want to share this “experience” and view of the LGBT community, go right ahead. Most realize that you are full of it and speaking lies. We can actively debunk each and every point you make, and have. If anything, you will help us by making yourself look like an intolerant monster.
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I love this.
homosexuals keep bitching about “equal rights” yet these same demented perverts think adult incest is a no-no
what a world
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Bigotry is a pernicious monster that unconsciously feeds upon its own lies, misassuptions, and rhetoric even when evidence to the contrary is provided again and again. Bigots believe what they say to be factual because they NEED it to be factual. To change ones privileged beliefs about the world is terribly threatening and doesn’t happen until a cataclysmic event occurs when the bigot is faced with the prospect of change or be hurt by not changing. Although I would never wish to have a gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender kid be born into the family of such hatred, this is likely the only way bigots such as those posting in this space will ever remotely challenge and possibly change their distorted views. All of the logical counter arguments in the world won’t change the heart of a bigot.
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“Actually, most modern research indicates that homosexuality is a biological trait with co-factors for environment, thus it IS inborn. As such, it is directly analogous to the race situation.”
DIRECTLY ANALOGOUS?????
That would be true IF race wasn’t mostly a social construct. Meaning by the masses especially when it comes to politics, race IS a social construct. A favorite saying of mine by Anthropologists, “One cannot determine a person’s race by the color of skin nor better than the breed of a dog by the color of its fur.”
Or,if you don’t agree you must be suggesting Blacks, Whites, Asians, and American Indians (i.e., USA’s Racial Construct) have significant predetermined biological differences like various aptitudes (e.g., intelligence, personality, creativity, strength, fortitude, ambition, docile, rage, etc.) to be analogous to be something measurable to homosexuality. I can’t see someone’s sexuality unless they share it with me or they perform it, RIGHT?
Now here is the kicker why you just stepped into why Liberals just like Conservatives don’t follow science. After all, these biological differences you pointed out would then explain why equal opportunities for each race (women and LGBT too) would through time and even during the life-span, doesn’t mean equal outcomes. What would you know, but this what most the research today shows for the pay gap for women being “not-so” existent.
I am certainly open to listening to your answer as not too long ago DEMOCRATS believed in eugenics (i.e., The Kennedy Family).
Conclusion: Quit Picking Science when fits your political ideology; the ‘so-called’ social progressives.
PS. Many LGBT political activists don’t like such determinism statement you made above. They favor sociology and Blank Slate (nonsense) which gives them more rhetoric leverage for the “legislative” platform to push their (often much needed) agenda. If the right realized it was scientifically determinism beside God (insert a joke here), then there is the possible threat of no real sociological need for some legislative (momentum) change. Some know and keep their mouth shut because of the risks. Obviously with many variations of sexuality (e.g., asexuality) it’s a mixed bag of chips, and the nurture and existentialism is NOT out the mix. Regardless, you may now know how unscientific all political ____________ tend to be.
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Well you don’t know the neurological components towards homosexuality: http://brainblogger.com/2015/05/14/homosexuality-in-the-brain/
http://www.bu.edu/thenerve/archives/spring-2010/reviews-spring-2010/homosexuality/
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All of your points regarding parenting relate to same sex couples wants and desires. You haven’t dealt with a child’s right (an actual universal right) to know and be raised by their genetic parents where at all possible. Do you understand that the children created by design to please same sex couples (all same sex couples who wish to procreate will need third party assistance) will automatically be severed from at least one of their biological parents? Many adult children of same sex couples experience a sense of loss in later life because of this. Do you think the adult couple’s need for affirmation and societal acceptance is greater than a child’s need and right to genetic heritage? Is this true equality? I know that some clinically infertile couples seek DAHR & surrogacy too, and that causes the same problem for their grown up children. But ALL same sex couples who wish to procreate will set out to create a child that will be severed by design (their design) from their natural rights. Is this fair?
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“You haven’t dealt with a child’s right (an actual universal right) to know and be raised by their genetic parents where at all possible. Do you understand that the children created by design to please same sex couples (all same sex couples who wish to procreate will need third party assistance) will automatically be severed from at least one of their biological parents? ” so will children who are adopted by straight couples, especially infertile ones. What about a child’s right to have parents who will raise and care for him?
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I had hoped you would address the “children’s rights argument” in this piece. Since you didn’t, I’ll just ask here. What is the gay rights activists’ answer to that argument? If you haven’t heard it before, it’s fairly well summed up here – http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/02/14370/
Thanks in advance for your answer!
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Here is my response to Katy: http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2015/02/katy-faust-wishes-her-parents-wouldnt-have-divorced-so-gay-people-cant-marry-parent.html
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/02/04/3618907/four-kids-gay-parent-oppose-equality/
http://www.slowlyboiledfrog.com/2015/04/ps-katy-faust-you-are-irrelevant-even.html
Hell her, ‘gay parents can’t raise children’ argument is also debunked here.
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Where did we come from? Are we created beings or evolved beings? Why are we here? What is our purpose? Is there such a thing as truth? What happens when we die?
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1) Likely the earth, but possibly through transfer from another celestial body via impact.
2) Evolved.
3-4) We decide.
5) Depends upon the definition.
6) Nobody knows.
Regardless, none of these questions are relevant.
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Hi Mr. Sager, I did a argument analysis on your article but I have a few questions for my works cited page. Who published the article and when was it published. Thank you.
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Currently, this has yet to be published. I am actually in the middle of writing a whole series of these refutation articles and will compile them into an ebook that will be distributed online. If you are looking to cite it, you can use the website format rather than the printed word or article format.
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I just wanted to personally thank you for this post. I know it’s been some time since you wrote it, but it’s still incredibly helpful and sadly still needed. I just posted this on FB, hoping everyone reads it and shares. We just need more people like you out there educating others. I really do appreciate the time you took to put this article together.
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Thank you very much.
I have completed a similar article on gun control, am almost done with one on abortion/contraception, and am slowly working towards finishing ones on right-wing economics (ex. cutting taxes improves the economy), cultural arguments (ex. racism is over because we had a black president), immigration, and climate change. Eventually, I will compile these into an ebook that I will distribute as a comprehensive progressive argumentation guide.
I’m just glad that people like you are sharing my arguments and making sure that people are less likely to be blind-sided by bad argumentation from the right wing. Thanks for reading and sharing.
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Hitler was Christian, Christian off the which most of America was fundi Christian knew Jews were in death camps and when they came to America what did we do deport them back Germany to be killed. To me this is rhetoric of the Christian right is true fascism and Nazism. The original bible Greek and aramehic has nothing on gays and transsexuals so I and my people and supporters have a claim. Not only that you can not call those people true Christians and only them have free right, aspects can not control other sects, religions can’t control other religions. Because we we are selfish and don’t want to understand u may be wrong even in the republican bible you don’t deserve free religion. I am transsexual woman you religous right are violating my pagan rights and other abrahamics libs their rights and even atheist. Believe or not gay marriage in the church has been around for many years. Adam and eve had no gender before fall there for their gay,trans,no,straight all in one.
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Can you make laws against pagans it’s in the bible as morally wrong, can u make blue laws so then glbt should be covered equally on all rights including marriage,housing,medical,jobs etc. And we should do what Germany did to Nazi deniers deny it in civil law.
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Dear Joshua,
Thank you so much for writing this brilliant article. I have been searching for logical responses to the confusing reasoning of fellow Christians, and I found the answers I needed in your writing. I am a retired school teacher, a heterosexual and a Christian who believes in the rights of homosexuals to marry those whom they love. My family calls homosexuality a “sin” and I really didn’t understand religious definition of sin and how it related to the rights of all human beings…until now! Thank you so much for all the work you put into this thoughtful article. I am excited to read the rest of your work.
Love&Peace,
Marty
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Tired of the entire issue. Born a man and tried sex with a women at an early age. Liked it and never considered sex with any other species. Don’t care if there are those who did not fit the same mold as me, but I do care when they keep reminding me of how badly they are treated when I have not personally demonstrated any issues with their life choices. Kind of like slavery;
I never owned a slave; so I get tired of being guilty of years of white oppression by association of my race. Guess I will just have to get over it.
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Whats the point of being married if you can’t do the two most important natural things, make love and have children. Putting your penis in another mans dirty ass rectum is not love. Lol its your only option that WILL unfortunately give you HIV/AIDS. Fact. Is this where our taxes are going to? To clinics to cure you disgusting people? Only for you to go and stick your thing back in there? But will you stop this act knowing its life threatening, no. God made it very clear in the bible that homos will be punished. So idk why you ppl say “let them! they’re not hurting no one, go with the flow” idiot, they’re killing themselves. See, homos know its a bad thing that’s why they waste their breathe convincing ppl that “it’s OK its love” I dont have to walk around asking for acceptance to make love to my man of 5yrs. Why? Cause it’s natural. Gays will never stop UNTIL everyone is gay with them. Wow and even your so called “HERO” bruce jenner even admits he does NOT support gay marriage, until the media called him out and NOW he changed his mind. “LOVE” is your guys fav word. If Love wins, then love wins for ALL so why not let a man/women make LOVE to their pets who they “LOVE” so much.As far as im concerned the animal has a rectum so its not impossible right?
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Let’s have an intelligent conversation when you pull yourself out of the more of bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. Until then, good luck living in the Age of Equality.
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Who is to say what is natural and what is unnatural? The fact that everyone makes such a big fuss over letting people like my girlfriend and I get engaged, and have PDA, and make love, and treating it as such a huge sin or a big deal. I understand that according to the bible it says a man is to love a woman, but God created all in his image, and love is a pure concept. Who’s to say what God actually said if they also say God loved all his children. What if he’s ashamed with how twisted and shallow we’ve become as humans because we can’t all love each other like he did? Which means that, for innocently loving, you can’t be sent to Hell, and that I wouldn’t be capable of being gay if God didn’t want me to. Sex, no matter the gender isn’t some dirty thing either. Anyone can get HIV/AIDS, not just through same gender sex. People say “Love” justifies nothing about being gay, but if it doesn’t justify gay love, then how can it justify “Straight” love, and furthermore, what have gays done to actually harm society? We have parades to support each other. We still have children, and work, and hurt, and pray, and live. Being gay can’t be a sin, because I’m not committing an act against God, I’m embracing the freedom to choose he’s given me. And I’l continue to do that when I work, when I take care of my future two children, and when I kiss my wife every morning because I love her. ANY member of the LGBT contributes to society. And ANY member of society are still all people, despite their differences. Also, as a Pagan woman, I know what it’s like to butt heads with those of other beliefs, and I know that the more open I am about others and myself, the better life is. Thank you for writing this article, clarifying some of the misunderstandings on Gay marriage and what not. It’s nice to see someone working hard for the truth.
-Levana Starlis Celestine, Wiccan Daughter of Diana, Lesbian and Engaged to Marry.
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There is no argument to be “pro-gay”, when i see gay “rights”, i see “forcing your sexuality on others”. You don’t have a right to be accepted for you behavior by private individuals or private business. Government is the only entity that should not discriminate(even though it does. it favors women over men, non-whites over whites, homosexuality over religious liberty)
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As I mention, this is EXACTLY what southern segregationists said during the passage of the Civil Rights Act. They lost that fight too.
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Mr. Sagar,
As a doc student in transformative studies, and as a married gay man with children, I want to you thank you for writing this blog and continuing to respond to the rhetoric and fallacious arguments that are left here. Sadly, while the laws have changed, anti-gay public opinion remains firmly entrenched. Thankfully, these arguments are poorly constructed completely illogical, allowing those who seek reason to see them for what they are–desperate attempts to justify bigotry and hatred. Thank you for shining a beacon of light onto the irrationality of poorly constructed arguments. Reason will eventually rule the day.
Your patience and persistence with the anti-gay commentators here is remarkable. I look forward to reading your ebook on progressive argumentation.
Peace.
Matt Rider Barclay
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Wow. I dont think i have been called a bigot so many times in one place. from what i learned on dictionary.com, a bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” This is simply untrue. As a practicing Roman Catholic, i can say completely within the bounds of my faith that I dont hate gays. I was never taught to hate gays, nor will i hate gays in the future. I dont agree with homosexuality, but that doesnt mean i dont tolerate it. I went to my cousin’s (also a catholic) hetrosexual wedding a few weeks ago and he had several gay friends there who i talked to and danced with and had a lovely time beside. It didnt matter to us who was gay or straight, but that we were human. Yes catholics do not believe that homosexuality is a natural or normal state for humans the same way that being impotent is not natural or normal. It is unfortunate, but not something to be hated.
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“Wow. I dont think i have been called a bigot so many times in one place.”
Where did the writer call you a bigot? I don’t recall your name coming up in the article but could be wrong. If you actively stand against LGBT people in gaining equal standing in the eyes of secular law, you are a bigot. There is no valid reason to do that, whether you are Catholic or not.
“I dont agree with homosexuality, but that doesnt mean i dont tolerate it.”
As an ex-Catholic I don’t agree with monotheism but I tolerate it. I also find your unwillingness to give up this belief to be unfortunate but nothing to hate you over. So I guess we have that in common.
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All I have to say is that at the end of the day and the world, God the creator has the last say, not man!, Seems nobody has respect anymore for God the one that creared you! Arrogance!
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Of course–the Flying Spaghetti Monster will have the final say. Or were you referring to another imaginary god?
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All I have to say is that at the end of the day and the world, God the creator has the last say, not man and his laws. Seems nobody has no respect for their creator, the one that created you! Arrogance!
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I know God is loving this, Actually all this is nothing new to God, the same thing and arguments about homosexuality has been going on since the beginning of time, there’s records of whats going on today in this day & time in the old testament, same situations with the benjamites, one of the tribes of the children of israel, where homosexuality was rapant! During the war with the other tribes of the children of Israel, God eventually destroying the “Men of Balaal” That’s wthat GOD calls them in his word .God your creator is not joke. He means what he says and says what he means.
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Just to give an idea of what gail worships:
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
gail’s God is evil. And, by extension, gail herself is evil.
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